Some Fine People

[Ronster]

You have heard people say what was said.
Read it and make up your own mind about what exactly was said.

This is only an excerpt. from :


"Reporter: "Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"

Trump: "I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other, and they came at each other with clubs -- and it was vicious and it was horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch.

"But there is another side. There was a group on this side. You can call them the left -- you just called them the left -- that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the way it is.

Reporter: (Inaudible) "… both sides, sir. You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides. Are the --"

Trump: "Yes, I think there’s blame on both sides. If you look at both sides -- I think there’s blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it, and you don’t have any doubt about it either. And if you reported it accurately, you would say."

Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."

Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."

Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"

Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."

Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?

"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.

"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."

Reporter: "Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying."

Trump: "No, no. There were people in that rally -- and I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.

"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country -- a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.

"Does anybody have a final --

Reporter: "What makes you think you can get an infrastructure bill? You didn’t get health care --

Trump: "Well, you know, I’ll tell you. We came very close with health care. Unfortunately, John McCain decided to vote against it at the last minute. You’ll have to ask John McCain why he did that. But we came very close to health care. We will end up getting health care. But we’ll get the infrastructure. And actually, infrastructure is something that I think we’ll have bipartisan support on. I actually think Democrats will go along with the infrastructure."

Reporter: "Mr. President, have you spoken to the family of the victim of the car attack?"

Trump: "No, I’ll be reaching out. I’ll be reaching out."

Reporter: "When will you be reaching out?"

Trump: "I thought that the statement put out -- the mother’s statement I thought was a beautiful statement. I will tell you, it was something that I really appreciated. I thought it was terrific. And, really, under the kind of stress that she’s under and the heartache that she’s under, I thought putting out that statement, to me, was really something. I won’t forget it.

"Thank you, all, very much. Thank you. Thank you."

[Kyle]

I watched it live. This does nothing to change my mind that Trump is a racist. I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, or why you would want to make it. Trumps a racist. Trump retweeted another “fine person” who shouted “white power.” Trump called African countries “Shitholes.” Multiple people have confirmed that Trump used the n-word. Trump has engaged in countless acts of race-baiting.

He’s a racist. If you vote for him, you’re voting for a racist (and a sexist, and a liar, and an incompetent). You can argue semantics by considering portions of this transcript out of the full context of the events that occurred, and that might be enough justification for you to feel comfortable voting for him. But you’re still voting for a racist.

[FlameBlade]

Here's an issue with fact-checking, it's highly asymmetric. I look at overall behavior, not snippets here and there. It's an accumulation of what is going on. Somehow, he constantly surrounds himself with grifters, and you only need to look at recent arrests of those who had "Build the wall" funds.

[Phoebe]

Here's what I don't understand:
If you say that some of the people at a protest organized by Neo-Nazis and attended by Neo-Nazis were very fine people - people who were somehow on the side of the Nazis - who exactly were those people?

His assertion goes something like this:
There were very fine people there on both sides.
I don't mean the antifa or the Nazi people, I mean the other people, on both sides, who were fine.
Who were the fine people on the Neo-Nazi side?

In addition, when Nazis organized a rally, who are the not-fine people who show up to oppose it?
And how is there any equivalence between the two sides in this weighing?

[Kyle]

Exactly. But it also ignores the underlying circumstances that this arose in. After the incident, Trump was repeatedly asked to denounce the new-nazis, and he refused for several days, instead choosing to equivocate. Those are the acts of a racist and is consistent with his other numerous racist acts.

I’m tired of being nice about this. I’ve tried to be patient and open a conversation with Trump supporters, but it only leads to more ridiculous pretzel-twisting to justify the increasingly more terrible acts by a racist, sexist president. Trump is a racist. If you vote for him, you are supporting racism. Whether you like it or not- you are voting to continue racist, terrible policies. And I think that’s awful.

[Eliahad]

Roster, I noticed you have changed your signature. I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you haven't really come out and said it, more left breadcrumbs for us to infer what you are saying.

So, what are you trying to say?

[Ronster]

[Stan]

It's kinda hard to take racist leasing practices out of context.
Or intentionally cruel border policies.

[Ronster]

I will not get into debates with you about your opinions.

[bralbovsky]

So, finally, he's like other presidents, in that his words were taken out of context.

Personally, I have stopped listening to him. Instead, I keep track of executive orders and Administration-level policy shifts that indicate a worse future in every regard. One example: We're making it ok to wreck the environment, but we're not even getting the financial payoff that allegedly (at least in the past) makes it worthwhile.

Has he ever, ever... said something generous or unifying or consoling that was not simultaneously self-serving?

His personal history makes him specifically vulnerable to the belief that he's still spinning a racist narrative. I'm not sure exactly what words he would need to say to convince a certain part of the country that he's really NOT an enlightened soul who's been unfairly depicted as an ignorant, lying asshole. As someone who has had ringside seats to his long career in New York, again, I've stopped caring what he says (though I know it still has catastrophic and tragic consequences) and am focused on the behavior and numbers. Despite his claims, for example, Trump has created a little more than half as many jobs as Obama. That's IF you don't count the Covid losses against him.
Full disclosure: I count them.

[Eliahad]

[Kyle]

I don’t think it was taken out of context, but even if it were- this is only one of numerous incidents of racist and sexist statements by Trump. Even if it were taken out of context- so what? That doesn’t mean he’s not a racist.

[Phoebe]

Trump is mistaken if he thought ANY fine people were present to support the rally organized, advertised, and attended by neo-nazi and white supremacist organizations from across the nation.

But even if he was correct, he had every chance to set the record straight and has chosen not to.

Let's imagine a hypothetical Fine Person who shows up for love of the Confederate statues - not because this imaginary person is a racist or neonazi, but because this person loves history and statues and thinks they need to remain where they are, for whatever reason. When that person hears the refrains of Jews Will Not Replace Us, and Blood and Soil, and sees him/herself standing elbow to elbow with outright, obvious nazis, then either (a) that person gets the hell outta there, or (b) that person is NOT A FINE PERSON BY DEFINITION.

So it's not that people are misunderstanding or misinterpreting Trump. Not at all. It's that there were no Fine People on the Nazi side of this rally, and if Trump thought there were, he only had to explain this when it was clear that his remarks had been misconstrued.

[Stan]

[Phoebe]

Yes. Whether the man is racist is definitely not an opinion; he has provided a great litany of empirical evidence that doesn't depend at all on interpreting what he says or listening to the mainstream media or any of that jazz. I would much rather look at his actions on this point than his words and they speak very loudly indeed.

I guess to give Ronster the benefit of the doubt, I assumed he was talking about the fact that people think they know what Trump is saying, but really they in turn aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt when interpreting his words. Or maybe they plain get it wrong when Trump comes right out and says he's not talking about neonazis. Except ... the only people there to protest were neonazis, or at the barest minimum knew very well that they were protesting with neonazis chanting about Jews, so we really want to know how you can call anybody associated with that cause a fine person? I mean, I'm assuming Ronster doesn't think anybody at that protest was actually a fine person. Just that Trump was not being properly understood?

One problem with taking this approach to Trump is that when he lies constantly, as a fundamental mode of communicating with other humans, you have to look at what he does because you can't believe a word he says. It's kind of like the fact that he keeps saying dozens of times now that he will never take away the protection for pre-existing conditions, even as he is actively engaged in trying to shut down protection for pre-existing conditions. Or the fact that he's saying his economy created the most jobs, when that's just flatly false. I guess I can forgive a generalized bragging about the economy because all presidents do that, but there are so many situations where he says one thing repeatedly and insistently even when he is doing the opposite.

[Stan]

Just so we're clear, is there any non-racist, nonviolent interpretation to telling the proud boys to stand by?

[Phoebe]

There is an ammo shortage y'all.

[Tahlvin]

C'mon, now, before he told the Proud Boys to stand back and stand by, he responded (when asked to tell white supremacists to stand down): "Sure, I'm willing to..." (before proceeding to say that almost all of the violence he has seen is from left-wing groups). I'm sure some of his supporters will say that was enough of a denunciation of white supremacy to meet the request that was made of him.

[FlameBlade]

I would love for Ronster to explain everything very clearly after shitshow of last night about proud boys.

[Phoebe]

It's very revealing that he wanted a specific name he could decide whether to denounce or sidestep, because he can't very well denounce the foundation and essence of his entire ideology, can he? But he might be able to refuse affiliation with specific groups. Unfortunately, the Proud Boys are not one of the groups he can refuse.